Tzipi Livni was once considered to be the most powerful woman in Israeli politics since Golda Meir.
She set the record for the most government roles held by an Israeli woman, including foreign minister, vice-prime minister, minister of justice and leader of opposition.
While she began politics in 1996 with right-wing Likud, and her parents were known as prominent fighters in the Irgun, over time she moved to the centre and became a leading voice for a two-state solution, negotiating with the Palestinians on a peace process – with her ultimate goal being to preserve Israel’s security as a democratic and Jewish state.
Livni was in Australia for the Mount Scopus Memorial Foundation’s gala dinner in Melbourne on December 9. In a conversation on stage with columnist Gemma Tognini, Livni discussed the trauma of October 7, her vision for Israel’s future and shared stories from her life.
Earlier in the day, Livni met with The AJN, shortly after visiting the Adass synagogue in Melbourne that was firebombed, on the day it was declared a terrorist incident.
“People asked me, why I visited the synagogue?” Livni said.
“It’s obvious – these are my brothers and sisters, and all together, we are fighting the same fight on different fronts. One is for the existence of the State of Israel … the other is against antisemitism, and the third is against the delegitimisation of the State of Israel … I believe that it is all connected.”
She added, “The responsibility to take care of the Jewish communities, whether in Australia or elsewhere, lies with the leadership.”
Livni believes that antisemitism has been rising for some time but became more pronounced post-October 7. She feels it is a combination of “the same old antisemitism and ignorance”.
At the Scopus gala, Livni shared that after October 7, former US president Bill Clinton called her and said he fears many young people know nothing about the conflict. Recently, Clinton publicly remarked that often young people are “shocked” when they learn that Yasser Arafat rejected a deal for a Palestinian state with a capital in east Jerusalem and 96 per cent of the West Bank. “I tell them what Arafat walked away from, and they, like, can’t believe it,” Clinton said.
Discussing the trend in the international community to condemn Israel and overlook Hamas’s war crimes, Livni said that while she supports a two-state solution to make progress towards it, “The suggestions should be balanced.”
For Livni, balance means considering Israel’s security needs for its defence, noting the Palestinians have previously agreed to a demilitarised state. “On the Palestinian side, they would say, ‘Why should we compromise when the world is giving us on paper, a state, and Israel is suffering?’” she said.
Livni noted that among Israelis are competing ideologies – those that support “Greater Israel” and those who would support dividing the land for a two-state solution, but after October 7, those that would contemplate dividing the land want to know that Israel can be secure.
“When the international community turns a blind eye to this, or when they criticise Hamas, but legitimise it by saying that it represents the Palestinian cause, which is not the case because Hamas represents a religious conflict … parts of Israeli society would say, ‘Okay, if there is no hope, so let’s stick together, and if the world is against us, let’s be against the world.’ This is not what I believe in.”
Regarding the war in Gaza, Livni said she supports the goals of the war – to eliminate Hamas as a regime in Gaza and to release the hostages. She believes the Israeli army has demolished most of the terrorist infrastructure of Hamas in Gaza and hopes there will be another deal to release the hostages.
She argues that what has been missing and what is desperately needed is a workable vision for Gaza’s ‘day after’.
“The best thing would have been … to give the army the possibility to act against Hamas and simultaneously to work with Egypt, the Emirates, Jordan, even the Saudis, and the United States to replace Hamas by other forces, including the Palestinian Authority,” she said.
“The Palestinian Authority is very weak. They represent a national conflict. I’m not speaking about giving them the keys to Gaza, but to do it step by step with the Emirates, with others.”
She contends that the failure to create these conditions could create problems for Israel. “What we see now is the discussion between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority to form something that will be difficult for Israel to say no to and the world will push Israel to get out of Gaza.”
Asked for her view on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s refusal to include the Palestinian Authority in Gaza’s postwar plans, Livni said, “Netanyahu portrays the Palestinian Authority and Hamas as the same, because parts within his own government for ideological reasons, are completely against any Palestinian regime that would create maybe negotiations for the future.
“I believe that there are opportunities in the region and the Saudis are waiting to see what Israel is doing, what they demand, and that is connected to the Palestinian conflict.”
On whether the Palestinian Authority is a viable partner for peace, Livni said, “I’m not speaking now about ending the conflict. I am realistic. I’ve tried twice. Abu Mazen … is older and weaker, and he didn’t show the courage which is needed.
“But as an Israeli, I’m speaking about what is the Israeli interest. And the Israeli interest is to keep Israel as a Jewish democratic, secure state with a Jewish majority. The other option of annexation is not a real option … the option of annexation of building more settlements is against the interest of Israel.”
Asked if she believes the Netanyahu government is considering annexation for Gaza as some have speculated, she said, “I don’t know … At first, when somebody said, ‘We will build settlements in Gaza,’ it looked… not realistic. But when people are continuing to speak about something, they are normalising it … I hope not. I think it’s against our interest.”
Noting polls suggest Israelis have moved to the right since the October 7 attack, asked if there is still a vision for peace, Livni said, “I understand that we are under trauma. We faced cruelty in the most horrific way. It was not just another terrorist attack. It was something else with the holocaustic nature, the helplessness, the torture.
“So, I’m not saying that we can end the conflict tomorrow morning. This is not what I’m suggesting.”
Livni is practical and argues that there are often bad options in addressing the conflict, but one must choose the least bad option.
“Let’s speak about the options for Gaza. The options for Gaza are to keep Hamas in power. Bad option. That Israel will reoccupy Gaza – meaning that it comes with millions of Palestinians living in Gaza, and we would take care of their welfare and health, and I don’t want to take care of that,” she said.
“The third option is to try something in stages that would hopefully replace Hamas. It’s a very complicated jigsaw with different parts that need to be orchestrated. But the other two options are less good.
“My national GPS, is written in the Declaration of Independence – a nation state for the Jewish people with equal rights to all its citizens … So I’m driving to this direction, I hope to find a partner … nobody is waiting for us now, but I want to keep the road open. I’ll do it step by step,” Livni continued.
Photo: Miriam Alster/Flash90
“For those telling me, we don’t have a partner, and I’m saying, I agree, but where are we heading? What is our vision? And if your vision is greater Israel, please explain to me what we are doing with millions of Palestinians that are living between the river and the sea, this will turn into an ongoing conflict, religious conflict.”
According to Livni, the choices being made in Israel now at a political level reflect a battle for different visions of Israel’s future.
“This is the debate that we should speak about among us, Israelis and the Diaspora as well … Everything that is happening in Israel is connected to these two different world views, the judicial reforms, the nature of Israel as a democracy, it’s all part of these two different visions.”
Livni continues to be a voice of moderation, as Israeli politics has become increasingly polarised. She retired from politics in 2019, but the newly formed centre-left Democrat party leader Yair Golan reportedly said he would offer Livni a prominent position on his list.
The Democrat party is a merger agreement between Labor and Meretz, as centre-left political parties have increasingly been diminished in recent Israeli elections.
As to whether she would consider returning to politics to run in the next election, Livni said, “I hear the voices of people that would like me to come back. My answer to them is that for me, politics is not a place to be.
“The only reason for me to be in politics, is if I know that I can really make a change … but I speak up for my beliefs, and I hope that it makes a difference.”
While Livni said she was not interested in returning at this stage, I’m reminded of the Israeli politicians who often retired and came back into politics, so perhaps we will watch this space, and many who are urging moderation will hope she changes her mind.
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